While I'm on hiatus here, I figured I would pose a question for discussion, and that question is that of ICA=ICC.

For those who haven't been exposed to this idea, it basically means In Character Actions equals In Character Consequences. In freeform, a big deal is made about characters being the sole responsibility of their muns (which I'm all for, believe me) but there's also the question of responsibility for their actions.

Take, for instance, this scenario: A character murders someone (random NPC or somesuch) in a crime of passion after catching said person with the charrie's NPC wife. But then this person claims that no one can touch their character because it's 'freeform'.

So... what's the answer to that?

I've seen a whole lot of people around who play murderers or just general assholes who then turn around and either find a way to get out of it without any retribution, or who scream and moan and cry if anyone else's characters take them to task for it. I've likewise seen several 'goodguys' who have refused to make a move on the villains of the story because the muns are likewise caught up in the notion that their characters have no right to interfere with someone else's.

Now, my opinion is that of ICA=ICC. I believe that if my character sees someone else being attacked, NPC or no, he has a right to jump in and get into it if it's his nature to do so. I also believe that the mun who instigated the scene had better be willing to let their characters face the consequences of their actions, instead of hiding behind the raving, screeching, "But you can't do that...!"

Likewise, I believe my character has to be able to own up to his own actions as well. When he jumped in after the slaver and got bitten and clawed, well... he decided to jump in and there was no dodge possible, therefore he had to suffer the consequences.

I suppose, ultimately, my contribution to this discussion (if it becomes one) is this:

Everyone should be willing to let their characters face the consequences. And everyone should play their characters honestly -- goodguys who don't get involved when it would be in character for them to do so aren't goodguys. They're at best good cowards; at worst, apathetically nonchalant.

I've heard plenty of arguments about 'what's the point?'

I suppose that the point always, for me, boils down to this: ICA=ICC.

If your character is a murderer, they should expect to have to face the consequences of such.

If your character is a goodguy and yet never gets involved in trying to do the right thing, then you as a mun should expect them to be labelled cowards or apathetic.

If your character does jump in, then they should expect that they'll have to life with however that turns out, for the good or the bad.

So... ICA=ICC.

What d'you think?

So if there's someone who has put someone on ignore (all official like with the button) for whatever reason (shouldn't matter why) and the person they have ignored does something and this first person doesn't react (because of the ignore) does that make the character coward/apathetic/etc? If not? Why should it apply to others who choose to ignore? With or without the button.

So, what you're saying is, you've got a villain or whatnot that more than two or three people in the room are noticing. They are either getting into it with this guy or girl, or commenting on it, or whatnot. Do you ignore them too? And if not, how exactly can you justify that? Partially ignoring what they're saying, if it involves this person?

Take the slaver. Now, stick Lydia where Elly was. You have a battle going on between this guy and his slave girl, Harry, Johnny and Sev. Erin's noticing it going on and so is most of the room. What then? Does Lydia ignore that and not get involved? I would say that would make her something other than a heroine. Mind you, I *don't* mind that -- I don't mind characters who don't get involved in things, despite my own charrie's feelings. But some honesty about it would go much further, really... instead of just choosing to ignore it so your character's reputation remains all pure, find a reason for her to ignore it. Maybe it brings back bad memories. Or maybe she assesses the situation and genuinely feels that she would be outmatched. Or, here's one... maybe she sees it and thinks, "I could make things worse by doing something; discretion in this case is better than valor."

See my point yet?

It's not so much the choosing to ignore certain things that go on in the inn. It's choosing to ignore them (and this is not directed at you, but at the whole entire audience in general) without anything but OOC justification for it and then expecting everyone else's IC characters to go along with that without thinking anything about the ignorer.

ICA=ICC. You're certainly welcome to ignore the goings on; I'm just taking to task those that think it's wrong if there are characters who will look at those who do and shake their heads and think that either they're chickenshits or that their powers of observation are very, very weak.

;-) In other words, you're welcome to ignore whoever and whatever you want; everyone is. But live with the consequences of it IC. See?

Mind you, that was not the only point I had addressed in that post. Feel free to give your thoughts on murderers and heroes owning their IC actions as well.

I'm just not addressing everything cuz I don't feel particularly verbose today. :\

Whenever someone Lydia is with notices something or comments, then yes, I will get involved.

For the record though, I do try to branch out my RP group and whatnot. The stuff I tend to ignore is the god moderz. Or the attention seekers with the walkz in and bleeding. Not once! Because people can vouch that Lydia has helped people like that before. But when people do it every time they enter for the sole reason of attention getting, no, I don't cater to it.

And the people I play with most know there are certain people I really, really don't want to play with. The reasons are personal so I'm not getting into it here, but? They respect me enough to not try to force it in any way. Ie, trying to do an introduction or something like that.

I dunno.. if you cooperate with me and respect me I'll do the same for you. If not, I'll just 'ignore' you to play elsewhere. No skin off my teeth. Or however that phrase goes.

I dunno.. if you cooperate with me and respect me I'll do the same for you. If not, I'll just 'ignore' you to play elsewhere. No skin off my teeth. Or however that phrase goes.

So, hypothetically, my character sees someone pick a fight on a helpless woman or some othersuch, which you don't want to deal with and thus ignore, then afterwards makes an offhanded comment that your character was a coward, or at the very least ignorant... where does that fall in the spectrum?

:-D

I would say that in this case, respect goes all ways. I try to cooperate with everyone; I expect, though, that cooperation to go both ways. I certainly expect that my charrie's entitled to have an opinion of his own, which wouldn't be influenced by your play preferences OOC.

Did that help to clarify what I mean?

If that's the way you want to play it, by all means.

I'm just also of opinion that a character shouldn't suffer because a player doesn't want to deal with crap.

If Lydia were there while Harry went after someone, chances are good she'd join in as well. If it got too ridiculous though because the other wanted to be super powerful and uber and nothing hurt or affected him ever? I'd just likely click "Exit Live RP" and play it as a Nexus whoopsie. I was involved in this scene that was just.. beyond ridiculous. Never doing that again. Worst RP Moment Ever. I'm sure D knows what I'm talkin' about here.

And the scene involved an untouchable god moder of course.

And yay I refreshed and see D. My opinion is the same as hers.

Man D, do you remember months ago when Lydia and Erin jumped into *everything* that happened? And how many times they ended up hurt or passed out. -.- And how many times they were ignored or brushed aside and how little fun we had with some of those scenes?

LAME!

Little 100 pound girl doesn't stand a chance against some of these demons and baddies about, so of course she got pwned. What really sucked though are the times Lydia and Erin helped out but when they were in trouble they were totally ignored by the people they helped. :( So much for paying it forward?

I was done when I realized how miserable I was whenever I played. Then voila, it was fun. And that's the most important thing about a game imo~

Also, if the room is REALLY small, I tend to play more into things, if it's crowded? I just can't keep up. So my ignores really are IC. Lydia just didn't see it.

What really sucked though are the times Lydia and Erin helped out but when they were in trouble they were totally ignored by the people they helped. Sad So much for paying it forward?

Tell me about it.

Nexus whoopsies are perfectly fine, ICly, if you want to get her out and have her heroine integrity intact. It's the whole sitting there while a fight or whatever goes on and half the room is involved, but ignoring it all -- again, that's not directed at you, it's directed at everyone who does that and lemme tell you, there are a lot of those people.

As to the moral character of the realm; people have opinions and are allowed to. My character will never understand why others see someone dragging a girl around by a collar and don't even say anything about it, just as others no doubt see him jump in to rescue said girl and probably go, "Oh, look, another stupid hero."

It's all perspective.

And it still comes back to ICA=ICC.

I think this is what the whole issue boils down to for me. Choice, and trust in the game. I go to great lengths to try and play my characters the way I envision them without stepping on others boundries, I expect the same in return.

Common courtesy at its best. ;-)

I have a feeling that a lot of people are mis-reading the ideas behind what ICA=ICC means. It just means that when your character acts, or doesn't act, or everything really effects the game and everyone involved in some way or another. IRL actions have consequences, IC ones do as well -- it's just a matter of being willing to face those.

Umm...Since everyone else was doing this--and got it thrown right back in their faces....at least that is what it looks like to me. I could be completely wrong about that part.

It's called the fine art of debate. See, when people disagree about things, they debate them. It's a very revered practice which, when used properly, clarifies positions and makes clear what other people think as well. Furthermore, it likewise generally remains friendly and insult free and by the end of it, people either decide to agree to disagree, or they are swayed by others' opinions or they just walk away from it.

This fine art has been practiced for a long time. Unfortunately, you've already stated that you hate people, and consider anyone willing to argue points to be idiots -- that kind of voids the whole idea of debating, doesn't it?

Now, that's perfectly fine and understandable on an IC level. However, civility and respect are, generally speaking, required in order to freeform roleplay. There is a very thick line separating what characters say or do IC and what the mun thinks or feels OOC -- however, you've repeatedly made it clear that you have very little respect for muns or characters in the FFRP environment.

Yes. I hate people. I hate idiots. And anyone else wants to think of me as an idiot, more power to them for more than highly likely I already think that about them.

Which is a polite way of saying, basically, that unless you plan on debating like an adult, with proper respect to the people you're debating with, you lose your rights to debate on my board -- afterall, you don't see me going into your playground and acting badly, do you? Whether or not you like me arguing my opinion, I posted it, and I certainly didn't force anyone to get into a debate with me. I've enjoyed it, though, and am perfectly willing to leave it where it landed as well.

Okay? You're certainly willing to state your opinions, but taking OOC potshots at anyone, including yours truly, just won't be tolerated. At least not on my board it won't, and I think you'll find that if you go taking potshots at people randomly here because you don't like opinions, it won't be long until you find yourself generally unwelcome.

Respect. That's all any of us ask.

Oh my.

So I read over my two-cents worth and this time I wasn't multitasking and/or half-awake(if you can call it that) at two AM.

And I think I came at it from the completely wrong angle. So! My apologies and! I now see the point gotten across.

And you're right. Respect is a nice thing and while usually I'm of the philosophy "Want it? Earn it", in RP that doesn't come into the picture usually. Unless it's the IC attitude and not gone and boiled over OOC.

Aretha Franklin had it right. Well, you know the song.