Topic: Of Apologetics and Atheism

Imrathion Tathar

Date: 2008-02-22 02:31 EST
Part 1: The Calm Before the Storm

?As to the gods, I have no means of knowing either that they exist or do not exist. ?
(Pythagoras)

***

Glenn was sitting at the dining room table in the psuedo-dining room of his barn, his back to the cast iron stove that warmed the interior. He had a large paperback volume splayed open in front of him, and he was reading it silently, lips pursed and moving as his calloused fingers traced the page. It was late afternoon; in a couple of hours, he would have to light the magical lanterns he'd purchased in order to read further into the night.

Carley walked quickly, shivering at the light snow that fell. Her cloak was pulled tight around her body, hiding form and clothing. Boots sloshed and thunked through slush and snow as she headed down the path that led to Glenn's barn and eventually, the entrance. Bouncing on toes, she knocked at the door quickly. She needed warmth!

He heard the knock and pushed his book aside on the table before standing up. With a swift gait, Glenn headed across the barn towards the storage room and the large front door. He unlocked it and opened, peering out to see who was there. When he saw who it was, he futilely attempted to smooth out the wrinkles in his white t-shirt and brush the sawdust off his canvas carpenter's pants. "Carley! Come in!"

Glenn didn't have to tell her twice! She thunked in, trailing snow and cold air. "It's super cold out there!" She didn't wait for further invitation, before she was thunking her way into the dining room to relish in the warmth of the stove. Cloak was shrugged off and hung over the back of a chair, and her outfit revealed: A brilliant blue button up blouse with darker blue denim shorts, pale blue stockings, and white boots. The beret was missing, though replaced by fuzzy blue earmuffs.

He followed right behind her, shutting the door against the winter cold. Before sitting, Glenn leaned down to press a quick kiss against the side of her cheek. He took the chair beside her and turned to face her, his smile glowing. "What brings you here?"

Carley couldn't help but giggle at the kiss, grinning brightly. "Do I really need an excuse to come see ya Glenny?" The fuzzy earmuffs were removed and set on the back of the chair along with the cloak. Weight shifted from foot to foot as she turned her back to the stove, warming herself as she regarded Glenn. "The only thing I got to offer is that I wanted to see ya. Last week was crazy, and this week I got more free time. It was visit you, or do my laundry..."

"Of course you don't need a reason," he said, returning her grin with a sappy smile of his own. "It's good to see you, though. Really good." Glenn's hand went to close the book he had been reading, but not before he dog-eared one of the corners of the pages he had been on.

Feeling warmer and in better spirits, Carley shuffled closer to Glenn and leaned down to wrap arms around him from the side. Resting her chin on his shoulder, she tilted her head a little to better see the book he had just closed, her cheek lightly brushing against his. "What were ya readin'?"

His eyes closed a little bit, sighing as she settled on his shoulder. "Just a bunch of different poems by a bunch of different people. Been reading a lot of different people to see if there's anything I can borrow from them in my poems. But they're a lot better than me." Glenn frowned slightly at that thought.

She rolled her eyes as a sound of frustration escaped her. "Ya gotta stop bein' so down on yerself all the time about that Glenny. And ya won't get better if you never write. And you can never write if ya work too hard or too much." She pulled away enough so she could turn and face him better, but arms remained just where they were. "Have ya tried writing anything recently?"

He nodded at her final question. "I've written a couple of poems. I can show you them?" He gestured across the room, to where his steamer trunk was.

"Really!?" Bright blues snapped to where indicated before she pulled away from him and did a little hop. "Yah huh, I wanna see them!" Carley was tempted to run over herself to open the trunk, but even she had some manners.

Glenn stood up and headed over to the steamer trunk, which sat next to his dresser and near the icebox. He unlocked it, reaching inside to pull out that black leather journal of his and a emerald fountain pen. He closed the trunk and locked it back up, then headed to the table. Carefully covering up one of the pages of his journal with a personal entry in it, he showed her the other page, which had a poem written on it.

Carley snickered quietly as she noted how he covered up the other page, but didn't comment as she wandered over, steps swift. Leaning over, she let her gaze move slowly over the words written, expression oddly thoughtful as she read his poem. Once done, she nodded to herself. "Sounds pretty." She turned her head to peer up at Glenn. "What's it about? You wantin' to learn elven? You've been practicin' that too haven't ya?" Eyes wide, she tilted her head as she rolled on the balls of her feet.

Once Carley had finished reading it, Glenn closed the journal with an audible *thump*. He started tapping at his temples with his right index finger, deep in thought, before he looked back to her. He answered her question in a round-about way. "I just feel so stupid sometimes when I try to talk in elvish. Really stupid. I try and I try and I know it's going to take a really long time but I wish it didn't. I wish I could just snap my fingers and be able to do it."

She chuckled a bit at that and clasped her hands behind her back, tilting her head the other way as she studied Glenn. "I think that's the way everything goes. When someone wants to learn somethin', they want to learn it right then. But that's never the case. Unless yer really lucky..." She shook her head and took a step closer. "You are gettin' better though Glenn... yer pronouncin' stuff better than when you first started. It's not something you'd pick up on, but I do." She smiled brightly then as she straightened some. "Lle queli."

He responded in kind, the elvish tripping off his tongue a bit freer and more melodically than it used it. "Diola lle, Carley. It's one of those things I try really really hard at, but there really aren't that many people who speak it regularly, so I can't really practice all that much. Except with you." He turned away from her shyly, a bit of red coloring his cheeks.

Carley's smile brightened when he spoke elvish. "Well if that's the case, yer welcome to practice it with me whenever ya want. Amin sinome iire lle anta amin..." When she spoke her native tongue, the words were lyrical and light, softer in tone than the way she normally spoke.

Without the elvish-Common dictionary in front of him, he could only pick out some of the words she was saying. Glenn did so out loud, trying to follow along. "I...you...I...?" Then, he spoke again, switching back to elvish. "Mani?"

She grinned and chuckled quietly, before translating for him. "I'm here when you need me."

His voice lowered barely to a murmur, and he took the risk of looking directly down into her bright blues. He wasn't wearing the jade necklace, so his face was clearly elvish, as were his dark green irises. "Diola lle, Carley. Cormlle naa tanya tel'raa."

Her cheeks tinted with a touch of blush, and she sighed as if she might swoon. "Sai quel..." She moved to tip toes and leaned forward, tilting her head just a little as she closed her eyes and pressed her lips to his.

Imrathion Tathar

Date: 2008-02-22 14:16 EST
Part 2: The Grandeur of the Gods, or the Folly of Faith?

Glenn tilted his head in the opposite direction, squeezing his eyes shut and pursing his lips a little in preparation for the kiss. After what felt like hours (but was most likely a much, much shorter span of time), he pulled back slowly, letting his eyelids flutter open to warm, forest green irises. "Tanya...nae quel."

Carley pulled away when he did, bright blues opening to meet green. Her gaze lingered on his for a bit, smile somewhat loopy. There was something actually bashful in the way she turned away from him, to let her gaze wander elsewhere. The book of poems he had been reading caught her eye, so she reached out to trail a finger along the front of it. "What're these poems about?" She turned to him, expression curious this time.

Glenn's hand went to touch the book as well, brushing calloused fingertips against her own. Free hand went to scratch the top of his head, tousling his light brown hair a bit. "Lots of different things really. It's sort of like the best poems ever written by a bunch of different people, picked by these other people." He went to flip the book back open, scanning quickly until he found the familiar dog-eared page. "This guy writes a lot about...God. One God." Without looking at the page, Glenn's posture suddenly straightened, as he recited the first couple of lines from the poem he had been reading. " 'The world is charged with the grandeur of God./ It will flame out, like shining from shook foil.' "

She had wrinkled her brow when Glenn spoke of the poem about God, and turned from the book to face him. When he recited the lines from the poem he spoke of, her nose wrinkled and lips twisted in a look of distaste. Snorting, her hand withdrew back to herself. "I could think of better things to write about."

Carley's words wiped whatever smile was on his face off, and he went back to his normal tone of voice. Flat, emotionless, monotone. Glenn also volunteered as little a response as he could to her comment. "Like what?"

She shrugged a little, shifting and twisting in place. "I dunno, something real? Somethin' that actually matters?"

A flash of light in dark green irises betrayed the lack of feeling in the words he spoke. "You don't think gods are real?"

Carley shook her head and turned to face Glenn. "Not really. I think if they were, things would be a lot different than they are now. If gods were real and actually good, they'd actually intervene in stuff. Even if they didn't care about stuff, they'd still affect things.. somehow. The thought of super powerful people just sittin' around doin' nothing is ridiculous." A pause to consider, then she chuckled to herself. "Or maybe not. Plenty of that actually happens around here. Powerful people sittin' around doin' nothing... 'cept maybe drink."

The flatness was gone, replaced by a surprising stubbornness. It flared in his eyes, as he spoke again. "I think they're real. And yeah, I think there are good gods and bad gods, and that the gods don't always give us what we want." Glenn paused for a second, as if deciding whether or not it was a good idea to tell her this. He'd kept it secret for so long, mostly because he wanted to protect Asha from harm, not knowing who or what might overhear what he said. But he trusted Carley, and, with an exaggerated shake of his head yes, told her. "But I've been touched by the gods...and it felt right. Holy. Real."

Carley's brows climbed high on her forehead. "You were what? Touched by gods...?" There was something.. disbelieving in her voice and tone. "Did ya actually see them? Or was it just some feeling?"

Carley's skepticism pulled him back further, and his answer was not really much of a reply at all. "Remember how my hands were hurt after the holidays and I couldn't work as much?"

She nodded. "Yah huh, I do." Turning her back to the table, she leaned back against it, arms crossing as she listened to Glenn.

Glenn recalled the story, leaving out as many details as he could and still have the tale make sense. "And then I started working again, right? Well, someone came by and needed me to make them something. And I told them that I couldn't, I hurt my hands, and I needed to rest to get them better. Well, she was a priest, and she offered to heal my hands in exchange for making it for her. And...her god sort of touched me through her hands and healed me."

Carley's features were still rife with skepticism. "That's not a god touchin' ya, that's just her magic at work. Some people are born with healing magic, just because it happens to be a priest it doesn't mean that her god is workin' through her." Arms uncrossed long enough for her to gesture with a hand - almost dismissively. "Ya probably just react really well to healing. It feels warm and fuzzy or somethin', doesn't hurt. I've heard of that - some state of euphoria."

He shook his head vigorously, hair bouncing around on his face, before he pushed it back out of his eyes. "No, it was like...it made me see that every time I'd ever prayed or been to one of the ceremonies for Sol or just been sitting around the glen, that I'd been getting a little bit of god. But this was like a lot more of god. More than I'd ever felt before. It felt good outside...and inside. I can't explain it really well. I guess you'd have to feel it for yourself."

Carley snorted and straightened somewhat. "I'd rather not..." She turned to face the book of poems on the table, face scrunching a little.

He was trying not to sound patronizing, but the fact that he was talking in an even, level voice seemed to make his words seem slightly insulting. "Look, I know not everyone is as blessed as I was. I feel blessed that I was given this. I wish I could say to you, 'Go do this, it'll prove it was real,' but I know it's not that easy. It's just-" He paused, emotion finally breaking through his voice. "it's given me hope again. When I first had my-my ears...I prayed. For a long time. And then I stopped, because nothing happened. Nothing got fixed. But now...I pray again. Because I think a god or gods have finally answered my prayers."

Bright blues narrowed as lips pursed in a look of annoyance. "Warm tingly feelings gave ya hope?" Her tone was a mixture of condescension and irritation, and it took quite a bit of willpower for Carley to not roll her eyes. Instead? She sighed. "Just how were yer prayers answered, anyways?" She seemed curious enough, though it may very well have been an attempt to humor him.

((Poem Glenn cites is "God's Grandeur" by Gerard Manley Hopkins))

Imrathion Tathar

Date: 2008-02-22 16:11 EST
Part 3: Belief, Hope, Anger, and Doubt

Glenn sat down, folded his arms across the table, and rested his head on top of them. He looked straight ahead as he spoke, in a quiet voice that could barely be heard over the crackling of the fire. "Maybe-maybe if her god could heal my hands, He can heal my ears? I mean, I don't know how or why He'd do that, but if He could-if He would...it would mean I wouldn't look so bad anymore."

Carley pressed her lips together momentarily before shaking her head. "Ya don't look that bad... it's not even something that noticeable. If there's a way for her to heal yer ears though... and that makes you happy?" She shrugged a little as arms uncrossed, and she rested her hands on the table. "Why not ask?"

He shook his head, as best he could from his slumped position. "It's not that noticeable because I hide it. With that damned necklace and my hair and the way I talk to people. It took you a while to find out, right?" Glenn sat up a little, glancing down at Carley's hands. "I-I don't think I can afford it. Magic healing or whatever is really expensive. And divine healing- it really took a lot out of her. She looked really tired when she was done. She only did it for me that one time with my hands because she needed something from me. I don't really have anything to offer her anymore...or her god." Glenn's shoulders sagged further, seemingly defeated by the last words he said.

Carley regarded Glenn for a moment, expression almost flat before she snorted in disgust. "That's so selfish... what, people can't do anything good for people without expectin' somethin' in return? Ya know.. if gods are all powerful then what's the big deal about helpin' people? If there were gods around, they'd do more than they do. But ya look around and everything's a mess.. if gods do exist, then I want nothin' to do with them."

For a moment, Glenn looked up at Carley with shock in his eyes. Did she just say what he thought she did? Then, he gave up talking altogether. Nothing he could say or do would change her mind. Apparently, nothing the gods could say or do would change her mind either. He laid his head back down on his forearms and turned away from her, content to let the silence kill the conversation.

She waited for a few moments, expecting Glenn to say something. When silence seemed to settle in she frowned, and it deepened with every moment that passed with no words spoken. "Are ya mad at me?" It was more disbelief than curiosity.

His reply was a muffled murmur to the opposite side of the barn, away from where Carley was. "I-I just can't believe you really said that. Or really mean it."

Her frown twisted into something of a scowl before she straightened and huffed, crossing her arms indignantly. "Ya can't believe something I just said, but you can believe in things you can't see?"

Glenn stood up, grabbing his book, journal, and pen. He walked over to his chest, opened it up again, and deposited the items back inside. When he was done with that task, he headed back over to the table. Still, he couldn't think of the right words to say. Not right away, at least. After a long pause, and a sigh of his own, he spoke. "I haven't really met anyone who doesn't believe in god or gods. Even if they were in Blackbridge, nobody said it openly. You pretty much had to at least pretend to believe in Sol. It's not that I don't believe you said that, it's that I find it hard to believe that you mean it."

"Rhydin's not Blackbridge." Carley shook her head, almost adamantly. "I don't have to pretend to believe in something that doesn't exist here. ...Does it even matter?"

Glenn replied quickly, as he walked back over and pressed his hands against the table for support. "Does what even matter?"

"Any of it!" Arms uncrossed as she gestured quickly, fueled by annoyance and a strange conviction of sorts. "Gods. Whether they exist or not. Who believes in what."

He looked down at the table as he quietly responded to Carley's comment. "It matters to me. It may not matter to you, and you may not believe in anything, but I believe."

Brows furrowed and scrunched as she frowned at Glenn. "Who's to say I don't believe in anything?" Finally she shook her head, clucking her tongue in disgust and annoyance. "Forget it, yer just like Cythia and everyone else.. if I don't believe in a big omnipotent or five that makes me less than anyone who does." She turned and snatched earmuffs from their spot on the chair, uncoiling them to put them back on.

Glenn stood there, watching Carley put her ear-muffs back on, but made no attempt to physically prevent her from leaving. His reply was weak, soft, and almost unintelligible. "I...I didn't really mean it that way."

Carley snatched her cloak up off the back of the chair, but didn't put it on just yet. Instead, bright blues snapped to Glenn. "So ya don't feel any different about me now? Not at all? Ya don't feel bad for me for not believing or that I'm wrong for not believing?"

Imrathion Tathar

Date: 2008-02-22 16:27 EST
Part 4: Reconciled (For Now)

He lifted a hand off the table, tapping furiously at his forehead. He met her blue gaze with his forest green eyes, trying to resist the urge to look away. It was tough. His words came out even slower and more deliberately than usual. "Carley...I've been here almost a year now. I'm not that stupid. I know that lots of people here believe in different gods than me. I guess I should've known that there would people who didn't believe in gods. But I don't think other people are stupid or wrong for believing in other gods. And I don't think you're stupid or wrong for not believing in gods." He rubbed his temple now, his facial expression pained. "If I did that, I would be like a lot of the priests back home, who would kick people out who wanted to worship Gaia the same way they worshiped Sol. A lot of what happened to me back home is because of stuff like that. Stupid stuff that doesn't really matter. I'm just bad at getting my ideas across."

Blues locked onto greens momentarily before she looked away. Silence settled once more as she draped her cloak over an arm and stared towards the ground, still frowning as she fidgeted and shifted weight from foot to foot.

Glenn slowly made his way around the table, closer to where Carley was standing, half-dressed to leave. He whispered to her quickly, then aimed his own gaze at the barn's packed dirt floor. "Do you believe me?"

The frown deepened momentarily before Carley nodded, somewhat hesitantly. "'course I do..." She trailed off, gaze shifting from ground to cloak as she tugged and toyed with the fabric. "Cythia always got real mad at me for this sort of stuff..." She shook her head dismissively at that, before lifting her gaze towards Glenn, somewhat tentatively.

Slowly, he lifted his eyes off the ground, mirroring Carley's gesture. He met her eyes, and couldn't help but smile softly at that. "For not believing in god or gods or whatever?"

She nodded a little. "Yeah... always tried preachin' about them to me, I'd never listen, she got mad. We'd fight about it. I hated that..."

Contrition led him to screw his face up into a half-grimace. "I'm-I'm really sorry if you felt like I was doing that. I mean, I guess I was a little bit, but I shouldn't have." Glenn tried not to sound too insulting with his next words, but as soon as they left his mouth, he winced a little at them. "I'll try not to be like that with you, if you'll agree not to be like that with me?"

She tilted her head a little to the side as her lips scrunched some in thought. After a moment, she gave a nod. "Okay... it's not somethin' to fight over or get mad about..."

"Too much bad stuff has happened to people because they don't like what other people think," Glenn said, nodding and smiling wanly. Then, he shuffled within arms' reach of Carley. Dark green puppy dog eyes fell on her face, as he held his arms out to her for a hug.

Carley grinned and chuckled some at the look in Glenn's eyes. She turned long enough to fling her cloak over the back of a chair before sprinting forward lightly to hop up in Glenn's arms. Arms were thrown around him as she gave a squeeze - light though, considering the little blonde's size...

Glenn wrapped his arms around Carley and giggled a little when she did the same. He withdrew a hand from the hug briefly, to brush aside blonde locks of hair from her face and plant a quick kiss on her forehead. For a while, he was content to just stand there and hug her, a silly smile plastered on his face. Eventually though, he broke the comfortable (to him, at least) silence to talk. "Did you want to go into town and get something to eat? I'm kind of hungry."

Bright blues closed in contentment as Glenn kissed her forehead, and she sighed a little bit before leaning back. Eyes opened again as she tipped her head back to face him. "That sounds like a great idea. I'm pretty hungry myself now that ya mention it..." She whirled about from his arms to snatch up her cloak, draping it around her form. "I don't wanna walk in the snow too much again, so we should get a carriage if we can find one."

He headed over to the front door, where his own cloak, mittens, scarf, and knitted cap were hanging from a coat rack that he'd built. He shrugged his way into the black coat, before grabbing the dark blue accessories and putting them on as well. He waited until Carley was dressed and over by the door before he pushed it open and held it for her. "It may be a little while before a carriage comes out here, but if we pass one we can try and flag it down. We may have to walk up to the city gates though before we can catch one."

A foot was stomped lightly as she pouted. "They really need to come down here more often then! People out here don't wanna walk in the snow..." She stomped her way doorwards and out, already grabbing for one of Glenn's hands. "We'll just have to walk super fast then, you can keep me warm too. I've had to walk around in it enough today."

"There really aren't a lot of people who live out here. I haven't even run into my neighbors-" Glenn said, gesturing with the hand Carley hadn't taken towards the farmhouses and barns on the left and right of Glenn's place- "since I've been here. I think Lydia lives up the road somewhere." Glenn gestured vaguely towards the main road ahead of them. He then turned back around briefly, hands reaching into his pocket for his keys. He quickly locked the door to his barn up, before turning towards Carley. "What do you want to eat?"

((Edited and adapted from Live RP))